No, Joe Atwill: Rome Did Not Invent Jesus

Apparently Joe Atwill has made a “documentary” of his book Caesar’s Messiah.

The Dead Sea Scrolls, ancient Jewish texts discovered in caves in Israel in 1947, give a different picture than the idyllic first century Holy Land of the Gospels. From year one, there were battles and confrontations between the Romans and the Jews, the Scrolls note, and there was no turning of the other cheek by the likes of rebel leader Judah of Galilee. And there was nary a mention in the Scrolls of the peaceable prophet Jesus Christ.

“This is where I came into Christian scholarship,” says Atwill, 63, an investor who lives by the proceeds of a dot-com sell off in the 1990s. “There was supposedly this character, Jesus, wandering around in Galilee. Nobody knew anything about him. Galilee is only 30 miles long. Jesus and other historical figures of the time would have known each other.”

Atwill, an admittedly bookish man, dived in headfirst, digging out whatever historical records he could find, studying the Scrolls, and reading Roman accounts, notably that of a family member of the Flavian dynasty of Caesars named Josephus. He found no historical Jesus in any of those writings. But there were some uncanny connections between the story of Jesus as told in the Gospels and the family of Roman emperors who took power after Nero was forced to commit suicide following a coup d’état.

I mean this is just golden cow scat.  Seriously.  Why?  Because that is what you’re watching.

Let’s start with the blurb itself.  Just the little snippet above should put anyone off from even considering this hypothesis.

  1. The Dead Sea Scrolls were not all written in the first century, but spread out over many.  There are more than 200 years of texts here, from the terminus a quo of the earliest manuscript to the terminus ad quem of the latest (3rd Century CE – 1st Century CE).  So no, Atwill, you’re not going to find a match to the Gospels because these were written after the Dead Sea Scrolls had been hidden away in the caves of Qumran.  In fact the site was probably destroyed by Romans during the First Jewish War–prior to when it is generally believed Mark wrote the first Gospel around 70 CE.
  2. The Gospels follow a pattern of what is called ‘Biblical Rewriting’ which was a common Jewish practice, just as ‘Homeric rewriting’ was common with Greek and Roman writers.  So actually the Gospels fit quite well within the scribal framework of the Jewish community at the time.
  3. Why would the Dead Sea Scrolls mention Jesus when the settlement where these scrolls were probably written is over 130km (80 miles) away from Galilee?  That is the distance between New York City and Philadelphia.  Additionally, the sect at Qumran seems to have kept to themselves, living strict pious lives of obedience to god and to their laws.  I do not believe them to have been Essenes–though probably quite close to them.
  4. Who else would have mentioned him?  We have no  contemporary attestation to anything from the 30′s CE from Galilee beyond archaeological finds (coins, epigraphical evidence, etc…).  But that does not mean to suggest none existed from the region.  Between the Jewish wars, the passing of time, we’re lucky we have anything from the region.  This is a weak argument from silence.
  5. If you’re coming ‘into Christian scholarship’ from this position, you’re doing it wrong.
  6. Your argument that “Nobody knew anything about him” is incredulous since we have Gospels and epistles probably dating to the First Century CE.  These may not have been accounts of what Jesus said and did, but they certainly demonstrate that a figure of Jesus was well-known to at least some people in the First Century.
  7. If you’re claiming to have ‘dived headfirst’ into the sources, does that mean you have a grasp of Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic, Nabataean, and Hebrew?  What about just Greek–since you predominately use Josephus?  I suspect that, given your book only has something like 7 footnotes and almost all of them are from Josephus, you haven’t quite managed to take into account all the sources.

Atwill then suggests the following hypothesis so centric to the thesis of his book:

Sometime in the mid 70s AD, Atwill suggests, Greco-Roman intellectuals wrote the now-well-known stories—in Greek, not the popular Aramaic of the Judaic populace—about the Jewish messiah who defied the Judaic traditions of militancy to preach a sweet, accommodationist message.

I’ll break this down too.  What the hell.

  1. You’re not using ‘Greco-Roman’ correctly. (You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means)
  2. Greek was commonly used by Jews in antiquity–Josephus, Philo, some of the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls, various Jewish pseudepigrapha, the Maccabees (though maybe from a Hebrew original–uncertainty here), Jesus ben Sira (i.e., Sirach), various apocrypha (Tobit, for example–though maybe originally written in Aramaic, more uncertainty here).  It depended upon their education and their level of assimilation which anyone familiar with the socio-cultural period of the Hellenistic-Roman periods would be able to explain easily.  Atwill clearly has no grasp of these concepts, probably because he didn’t bother reading anything related to this despite his self-acclaimed ‘bookish-ness’.
  3. Jesus’ message in the Gospel is not new or anti-Judaic.  In fact, it is quite Jewish (see anything written by James Crossley, for goodness sake).

All in all, Atwill proves he is incapable of taking this subject seriously–his not being a scholar aside, he completely misses the more logical argument to make from the Josephus-Gospel parallelisms, which also happen to be the same arguments made by Steve Mason in his now-famous work on Josephus and the New Testament: that either the Gospel authors or Josephus were using each other as intertextual references (I think it quite obvious that Luke had copies of Josephus, actually–a point Mason glosses over in a paragraph but never admits fully, but also what Richard Carrier argues here).

If you are planning to go see this movie, please, bring a disposable bag so you can properly rid yourself of the dung that undoubtedly will be thrown at you during the presentation.

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16 Responses

  1. Geez, can anyone get a documentary now? And did his book really sell well enough to warrant a film?

  2. It pains me to say I have actually seen “Caesar’s Messiah” in an area Barnes and Noble, where I have never seen many other far more scholarly, believable, and important works. Sigh.

  3. Aaron, I’m not sure if the book has sold enough copies to warrant any attention, but often it is the nuttier concepts that get the documentaries–after all, the more controversial the higher the value (from a marketing standpoint). So you’ll probably never see a serious documentary on the agnostic position on the figure of Jesus. But You will see movies like Zeitgeist or Caesar’s Messiah, because they are just batty.

  4. That is quite sad, Chuck. I remember when I worked at Borders back in 2007, we used to have copies of Acharya S on the shelf and I used to cringe every time someone saw it and asked about it. And yet scholars like NP Lemche or Philip Davies or Thomas Thompson barely found shelf space.

  5. Wow, there’s so much anger here, and that pict is definitely in bad taste. It says more about you than about Atwill’s Caesar’s Messiah. Shameful.

    I’d suggest actually reading the book first before you try to “debunk” it.

    It’s amazing how many people have opinions about a book they haven’t read, and a thesis they obviously don’t understand.

    Better luck next time! :)

    MF
    ps. Enjoy:

    “…But I have yet to read an argument against his work that was anything other than an emotional outcry and a groping for old worn out, baseless, yet preferred beliefs about the new testament and Jesus…”

    I think your attack falls into that category.

  6. Oh look, an Atwill fanboy!

    (1) I have read the book. In fact it is sitting on my bookshelf:

    I’ve also spoken with Atwill many times over the years and then as now I find his research to be practically nonexistent, his scholarship to be subpar, and his conclusions are weak–and that is being quite polite about it. He has no background in the subject he speaks about and that is clear just from his misuse of words. I am not wrong about his book: it is a pile of crap. Had you any background in the subject, maybe you’d agree.

    (2) As for the image, well, sorry to say, the truth is the truth. If my image offends you, I can’t help you with that. Atwill’s book is offensive to serious scholarship as a whole and my reaction to it has nothing to do with emotion or some ‘preferred’ or ‘baseless’ belief about Jesus or the new testament. Do you even know who you’re talking to, or do you always make presumptions about those who don’t find anything useful (or correct, for that matter) in Atwill’s book?

    Oh, I removed the link in your post because, frankly, Atwill has done enough damage. I’ll be correcting his mistakes for years. So I refuse to give his work any more of a platform on my blog.

  7. Not a fanboy, but I find it very interesting, and well, I’ve never seen a real debunking of his theory – just a lot of uninformed, emotional, ad hominen attacks.

    (And if he’s so wrong, debunking it should be pretty easy… And, no, you haven’t done it here, seems to me you’re not even close… which is why I thought you hadn’t read the book… you presented no evidence that you had.)

    As for the pict, and who I am talking to, as I wrote, it says more about you than his work. Do I really need to know more? What kind of person posts that on his blog? You should really do some thinking about that. I think you’ll eventually agree with me and end up removing it, especially if you want people to take you seriously.

    Too bad you removed the link to Atwill’s blog though, that’s telling too. Anyone interested though can simply google “caesar’s messiah” and find the blog (and that quote) for themselves.

    Also, they should read the book too and then make up their own minds… please don’t listen to reviews done by people who haven’t read the book and aren’t willing to discuss the thesis politely. You will find it interesting, and thought-provoking, even if you end up not agreeing with him.

    As for you, if you do actually “correct his mistakes”, in a real book, let me know. I’d buy your book and give you a fair hearing.

    In fact, it would be great if you could get a new copy of his book (that picture shows an old edition), go through it and show where he’s wrong… I’m especially interested in the Flavian signature chapter… Seems to me the case is pretty clear… maybe I’ll even make a list and let the Flavian worshippers attempt to debunk it line by line. They certainly haven’t done it yet!

    I think the “fishing for men” parallel is interesting too…

    “…And how will you be able to avoid being ashamed, if you do not
    show equal courage with your commander, when he goes before you into danger? For you know very well that I shall go into the danger first, and make the first attack upon the enemy. Do not you therefore desert me, but persuade yourselves that God will be assisting to my onset. Know this also before we begin, that we shall now have better success than we should have, if we were to fight at a distance.”…” – War of the Jews – Book III – Chapter 10

    What are you going to do when his next book (The Single Strand) comes out? Should be interesting!

    If Atwill’s wrong, those pesky parallels are one heck of a strange coincidence!

    MF, A fan, but not worshipper, of the Flavians :)

  8. Not a fanboy, but I find it very interesting, and well, I’ve never seen a real debunking of his theory – just a lot of uninformed, emotional, ad hominen attacks.

    Bullocks.

    (And if he’s so wrong, debunking it should be pretty easy… And, no, you haven’t done it here, seems to me you’re not even close… which is why I thought you hadn’t read the book… you presented no evidence that you had.)

    My blog post here was to debunk to blurb related to the movie and that was done quite easily. If the movie follows the blurb, the movie is trash. It Atwill’s new book (or his new edition) follows the blurb, his book is trash. If you contest anything I wrote, state what you disagree with. We’ll go from there.

    As for the pict, and who I am talking to, as I wrote, it says more about you than his work. Do I really need to know more? What kind of person posts that on his blog?

    A person who recognizes garbage when I read it. I didn’t tell you to come post here or to read my article. If you don’t like it, there is the door. Don’t let it hit you and your persecution complex on the way out.

    You should really do some thinking about that. I think you’ll eventually agree with me and end up removing it, especially if you want people to take you seriously.

    If someone refuses to take me seriously because I have a picture of cow dung on my blog, they have some major critical thinking issues and then I don’t really care what they think. Those who matter judge me by my character–and apparently I’m judged quite highly. Think about that for a while.

    Too bad you removed the link to Atwill’s blog though, that’s telling too. Anyone interested though can simply google “caesar’s messiah” and find the blog (and that quote) for themselves.

    They sure can. But my blog won’t be a billboard for his terrible book.

    Also, they should read the book too and then make up their own minds… please don’t listen to reviews done by people who haven’t read the book and aren’t willing to discuss the thesis politely. You will find it interesting, and thought-provoking, even if you end up not agreeing with him.

    Apparently you have a comprehension problem. I have read the book. His book is crap. Hence the picture of manure. Honestly, follow along–it isn’t hard. Just because someone finds the book terrible doesn’t mean they didn’t read it. It just means they read it and found it terrible. This is why you sound like a fanboy.

    As for you, if you do actually “correct his mistakes”, in a real book, let me know. I’d buy your book and give you a fair hearing.

    No, I’ll just correct them here on this blog because, unlike Atwill, I’m not just bullshitting my way through history to make a buck off of people’s ignorance. But that will have to wait when I have time to dedicate to that. I’m usually busy working, doing course assignments (because unlike Atwill I’m actually educating my self professionally on the subject), publishing, editing, or writing new submissions to publish. Because that is what people in the field do: they work in the field.

    I also find it amusing that you wrote ‘real book’ because Atwill’s book is (a) not a real book (it is self-published) and (b) I have published a real book–an academic collection of essays in fact, that I co-edited, and have a chapter on Paul in which, interesting enough, delves into intertextuality (the term used to describe the function of the ‘parallels’ you mention below) and the use of certain terms found in Josephus (that includes going back to the original Greek, discussing links between concepts, socioculturally, etc…)–none of which Atwill has done in his ‘real book’.

    In fact, it would be great if you could get a new copy of his book (that picture shows an old edition), go through it and show where he’s wrong… I’m especially interested in the Flavian signature chapter… Seems to me the case is pretty clear… maybe I’ll even make a list and let the Flavian worshippers attempt to debunk it line by line. They certainly haven’t done it yet!

    Wow you’re a gullible sort, aren’t you? First, your use of ‘Flavian worshippers’ is evidence of your fanboydom to this crappy idea that Atwill has clearly fooled you over. Using terms like this shows you are incapable of critical thinking and seek only to wallow in your own obsessed little world. Like a creationist talks about evolutionary biologists as ‘evolutionists’ or ‘science worshippers’ because they can’t comprehend the math, you call scholars of Josephus ‘Flavian worshippers’ because you don’t comprehend historical methodology. Kind of pathetic actually.

    Also, I won’t buy another book from Atwill. Tell him (I presume you’re not him? Maybe you are; you’re coming across as someone who would sock-puppet) to publish his thesis in an academic journal or submit it to peer review. Then I’ll consider it. Until then you and Atwill can stand back and throw stones at credible scholars from your glass house.

    I think the “fishing for men” parallel is interesting too…

    “…And how will you be able to avoid being ashamed, if you do not
    show equal courage with your commander, when he goes before you into danger? For you know very well that I shall go into the danger first, and make the first attack upon the enemy. Do not you therefore desert me, but persuade yourselves that God will be assisting to my onset. Know this also before we begin, that we shall now have better success than we should have, if we were to fight at a distance.”…” – War of the Jews – Book III – Chapter 10

    What are you going to do when his next book (The Single Strand) comes out? Should be interesting!

    If Atwill’s wrong, those pesky parallels are one heck of a strange coincidence!

    None of Atwill’s parallels are convincing, least of all this one. Does he analyze them philologically? I doubt it, since he has no grasp of Greek or Hebrew. His biggest failure is that he fails to recognize that correlation does not equal causation. Parallels can exist but have no direct relationship between the two objects under comparison. That is one of the biggest challenges of literary criticism. Atwill doesn’t deal with this, he presumes his case and marches on. Apparently you would prefer to fall in step with him than deal with the issues of his volume.

    Let me know when Atwill publishes academically. If his thesis can’t pass peer review, I’m not interested.

  9. MagersheyFlavius wrote: “And if he’s so wrong, debunking it should be pretty easy”

    Perhaps you’d be interested in this.
    http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/rev_atwill.htm

  10. Atwill has got it right and he deseerves credit for unravelling all the BS and myth in the bible stories and the bronze age Jewish literature-mythology. Mr Atwill deserves our praise for his scholarly work and if you feel you cannot praise him for wrecking that mythological life which maintains you in a state of ignorance, at least buy his book–and read it.

  11. Besides your comment making absolutely no sense, you are commenting under my post where I clearly have a picture posted of Atwill’s book on my bookshelf. Keep commenting though, so you continue proving my point that Atwill’s only followers are deluded morons with no interest in credible scholarship.

  12. I have an interest in the history of early Christianity, and I know a fair bit about the topic. I found Atwill’s book fascinating and for me it rung true. You sir, need to cool your jets, pull your head in, and show some respect for people like Atwill. You also need to show some good evidence you have actually read a book when you critique it.

  13. I appreciate your passion for the subject, but ‘knowing a fair bit about the topic’ does not qualify you to make decisions on the accuracy of a claim. His arguments do not hold merit. Additionally, respect is earned, not given freely. Especially in academia. Joe Atwill is wrong, and until he decides to publish this hypothesis of his through peer review, it will never be a respectable position to hold. It is just another lame conspiracy theory by an amateur.

  14. If you don’t even know Greek, you are a layman. Period. This is basic, first year classics stuff. Trying to compare texts in translation is perilous – parallels can exist in English that don’t hold up in the original.

    Furthermore in Ancient Greek(attic is the dialect I studied) words can have multiple very disparate meanings. From what I’ve seen of Atwill’s book it’s nothing but an exercise in literary pareidolia.

  15. I recently reviewed one of Atwill’s blog posts in which he uses a passage from Histroria Augusta to uphold the claim that “Jesus and Serapis were the same god.” Atwill doesn’t realize everyone in the field recognizes the “Hadrian Serapis” passage is a late fourth-century forgery. Pretty amateur.

    http://benstanhope.blogspot.com/2013/03/joseph-atwills-blunder-serapis-and-jesus.html

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